ABY: We have to be honest with ourselves. When there is criticism - I supported the war in Gaza, but of course there are evils that Israel is doing in the West Bank, with the settlements and the continuing occupation. So when people cannot make a distinction between what Israel is doing wrong and what Israel is doing right, this leads to confusion, because when they see the settlers taking land, and enlarging the settlements, and putting up the barrier, they think, "Terrible Israel!"

And then when Israel fires on Gaza, they say, "This is the same Israel, and this is the same thing." So this is what we ask from people - to differentiate what is good and what is evil, what is right and what is wrong. I've been criticising Israel for 42 years about the settlements. I would say, OK, there can be occupation, until the Arabs are ready for peace, until they are ready for it we can stay there with our army. But don't build settlements, it is wrong - the Palestinians are left with only one-quarter of Palestine, in the 1948 war we took three-quarters of Palestine - of course, a great part of it is the desert, but still, they are left with a quarter of Palestine. Don't touch a bit of this quarter, don't take one inch of land from this quarter. You can stay with your army, you can fight terrorism, you can say to the Palestinians, "We are waiting for your recognition," but don't put civilians there.

When we pulled out from Gaza, finally [in 2005], they could be proud, Hamas and the Palestinians, they had chased us out of Gaza. We said, "OK, we have dismantled the colonies, we have dismantled the military bases, now we are out of Gaza." We showed the world we had left without any conditions, they had chased us out, like the Vietnamese chased out the Americans, without any conditions. So did the Palestinians then say to the world, "Now Israel has left, we are building, we are flourishing, we are even an Islamic state, we are on our own"? No. Instead, they have been firing rockets for three and a half years. Why?

HJ: What the Left say over here is that this was because we imposed an economic blockade - that order of things is all wrong, but you'll find it very hard to get people over here to accept what you've just said.