African countries have now been independent for some 50 years, how long are we going to stand around and say it's because of colonialism? It's time to move on.

My parents are from two different tribes who were the first two black Zambians to go abroad to get an education and to get degrees at the University of Zambia. They returned home very committed, they wanted to see their continent thrive. It's been a failure. They don't want to live abroad, they want to live in Africa. Yes, the African elite are a problem but I'm glad that Richard made the point that the elite have their snouts in the trough of aid. If you don't have the aid, then they will actually care more about health care, about generating jobs and showing that they live in an environment where there's no political stability. If you remove that aid then you could conceive of a situation where everyone has an equal shot at rising to the top, and you will see meaningful shifts out of poverty. Africa will always have a colonial history, Africa will always be made up of diverse populations. If we sit here and say, "Well, that's really the problem", and that we don't really think we can get around it, that's very pessimistic. As an African who hopes to have children one day, I'm worried that they will be in an environment where the world looks at Africa and continues to think of it as a place that can never develop because of colonialism and tribalism, and can never break out of those cycles.

RD: I'm glad that you said, "We have to move on." As an outsider, I can't really say that, that's for Africans to say. But I think one of the problems is that Africa's just not violent enough, that all the demands should be coming from below: "Where's our health service? Where's our education?" Africa's so passive in some ways. When they do have terrible wars they fight on an ethnic not a social basis. You need a French Revolution.

DM: I think that it's ultimately fear. In the book I talk about that Tiananmen Square picture in 1989, with the Chinese man standing in front of the massive tank. That level of defiance is something that you rarely see. The life that many Africans lead is under a veil of fear because who's to say that somebody won't walk into your house and shoot you because you spoke out against the government? Who's to say that your family won't disappear because you've objected to the government's corruption? These are not tales from my imagination. These are actually things that have happened in Africa. If you get rid of the aid then people can say: "Actually, my government's not working for me, I'm going to remove them." That's how the rest of the world works, by and large.