RD: Sure, that was then, that was the Cold War, you didn't care what the guy did.

DM: It's still happening.

RD: Is that right? I don't want to speak for the British government - as you know I'm pretty critical of them - but they would say: "Now we know how to do aid properly and we no longer support those sort of dictators. We promote democracy, transparency, accountability."

DM: So why, may I ask, would Britain and America continue to give money to
Mugabe?

RD: Well, I don't think they do.

DM: They absolutely do, they absolutely do, and besides, they maintain diplomatic ties.

RD: They maintain diplomatic ties but I don't think that they support him financially.

DM: I have statistics from the Department for International Development that they have provided...

RD: Well, they do provide aid to the people and sometimes the government tries to interfere with that but I don't think they would want Mugabe to remain in power. I think if they could find a way of getting rid of him, they would do it.

DM: Well, my view is, he comes to Rome, he travels wherever he wants. I was in New York for the UN meetings in September, he was there. He was in Rome for the Pope's funeral, he was at the FAO meetings last year, I mean personally.

DJ: You do make the point that Zimbabwe received $300 million in aid, just in 2006.

DM: Yes, but I think the more fundamental problem with respect to the Chinese is that if African policy-makers were beholden to African citizens, they would not tolerate an environment where the Chinese can come in and bring in their own people to be employed.