DH-A: Jay, you are not only an imperialist but are betraying a slight arrogance here. It is not for us to tell other people how they should be governed. They must make these decisions themselves.

PPR: But we did tell the Germans how they should be governed.

DH-A: When people lose confidence in who makes their laws, who makes decisions for them and who spends their money, then you get apathy, hostility and even extremism. Because when people feel that it doesn't make any difference how they vote, they will step outside the democratic tradition and you will see the rise of extremism and we are getting near that in Europe. We have seen this in the numerous "No" votes in referendums. It is a disgrace, and it means that the EU we have created is legally all-powerful. Its dictates and laws are superior to national laws.

But it's a Europe without people. It's empty. There is no European people. There is no European public opinion. There is no European demos. So this attempt to create a Europe-wide system is profoundly undemocratic. And when Europe has to make an important decision, it will find that there's nobody there to follow or obey.

PPR: I'm not sure that's true. I've just been looking at a survey taken by Gallup this year, or late last year, called the Flash Euro-barometer, about attitudes toward the EU in the UK, and it found that almost half of the people questioned are quite satisfied with the way the EU is functioning. And particularly the younger people and the better educated people are satisfied with the EU. The people who tend to be Eurosceptic are older, rural and the less well educated.

As for democracy: we must have a referendum, you say. But all the major changes that have happened in Britain have never been subjected to a referendum. Were people asked to vote on the question of immigration, of whether huge numbers of people from the West Indies or the Indian sub-continent should be allowed to settle in this country — were they asked that? Were they asked about capital punishment? Were they asked about amendments to our laws on divorce, or homosexuality? All those changes were imposed by the bien-pensant parliamentarians, often against the tide of public opinion. There were no referenda. The only referendum we've ever had, so far as I know, is on the EU, and it went in favour of the EU.

DH-A: Of course we don't have referendums on policy matters: we have a parliamentary democracy and we elect people to make those decisions. But constitutional matters are different — that is when the rules of the game are altered. This was Tom Paine's point in the 18th century. He believed that politicians must not write their own rules, because they always give themselves more power. The constitution must be an act of the people. And then within those rules the politicians can fight it out at elections, make the laws and make the choices.