RD: But I think there's going to be a sudden tipping point, because this aid is being wasted, and suddenly one day somebody - maybe it's Dambisa - is going to say, "The emperor has no clothes. This ain't working."

DM: I don't know if I'm the person.

RD: I just think there will be a sudden tipping point, and I'm afraid of that. I never knew Peter Bauer, but there was that feeling at that time, when Mrs Thatcher made him a peer. It was: "We don't have any responsibility for these people, it's their problem, and they should sort it out." And what I find difficult in all of this is that there is a great tradition in Britain, in Europe, for helping "the poor", and it's a very Christian thing, and I think it's a good thing for human beings to feel like that, when they turn on their televisions and they see somebody starving, and somebody says, "Can you raise some money to save them?", they say yes and they want to give some money to save them. I not only understand that, I think that's really good, and the trouble is, if you just say, "Aid is really bad", then people will just become completely immune to the bad stuff that's going on. But there is something you can do about it.

DM: That's a very important point, because I'm not saying that Africa should be left alone to solve its own problems. We are part of a global society, and what I'm saying is that we all need each other. We breathe the same air. If we let Africa continue to spiral down into this abyss, or if we allow too many unemployed youths in Africa, who will then get involved in terrorist attacks, or if we ignore rampant diseases that start to spread globally - those are not things that are necessarily confined just to Africa, so that you can say, "Oh well, we don't really care." We are part of a global community. What I'm recommending in the book is, "Yes, we want Western help, but not through aid." There are other ways to intervene, there are other ways in which Africa can be helped and supported on its agenda to become part of the global society. So I'm not saying, "Read my book and don't ever help Africa again, let them get by on their own." I've given examples of how governments can get involved through increasing trade. If the Western markets don't want to trade with Africa for reasons of protecting their own markets, Africa should focus on China and India. Let's make environments in Africa conducive to attracting foreign direct investment (FDI) from Western markets, but also from the rest of the world. Things like the capital markets, issuing debt in the capital market, which offers an amazing chance to showcase a country, and also provides transparency and accountability. Those are things governments should and can do. On the individual level, you and I, trade and FDI and capital markets might seem very lofty, but rather than sitting here and watching another Africa campaign and feeling sorry for it, go on to things like Kiva, which is a fantastic organisation. You lend money to African entrepreneurs who are starting businesses, who are looking for capital. It's a fantastic programme. You can lend as little as $25 to a woman in Kenya who is making clothes, or a man who's got a chicken farm in Zambia, and so on. They post reports on what the challenges have been, and how they're growing. That acts as a direct way of providing support, and really being part of the development process, which is more credible than aid. I think there's been one default since they started Kiva. That's really much more useful in the longer term.