NK: I don't follow Angela Merkel in her complaint about the Church losing its attraction. It is not the Church that holds Germany together, or Britain or France. The Church is important as an institution. Religious freedom is a corollary of our democracy, our liberty. The Church is an asset. But what holds society together is not the Church as such, but rather the Judaeo-Christian culture, democracy, humanism and peace. It is also the fact that we have the rule of law that protects the rights and liberties of the individual; that the state is accountable to the citizen. The state is not above the individual. What counts is the citizen with his rights and duties as much as his personal charity. This is our Christian cultural heritage. We are even taught to care about our enemies. That is a very important message upon which civilisation is built, to a large extent. There have been lapses on the evolutionary path, such as fascism. But as a whole, our society has evolved in a very positive way. So what I'm worried about is not people going to church less often, but the fact that there are groups that reject the society that allows them to live their religion freely. They dislike our culture, the rule of law, the welfare state and the individual freedom it grants. These groups gain importance. We can effectively counter this threat only by explaining why the rule of law, the modern welfare state and individual freedom are treasures to cherish and protect. It doesn't help if we try to humiliate them by insisting on Christianity. Our state is a secular state, and we should be glad that our society has overcome the former power of the Church.

KH: I agree with that, but at the same time I'm not indifferent to the emptying of the churches. We need the institution of the Church as one agent in society among others, and we need the churches as platforms for a societal discourse on values and morality. If people don't go to church any more, this discourse doesn't take place with the same regularity and intensity as before. You can live according to Christian values without going to church. But it is important to have the Church as an institution where you know almost by instinct for which values it stands, a secure place where you can go and work together with other people to discuss, understand and develop your systems of values. The church can be a very useful platform for the definition, practice and development of these values. If we don't care about that, we also lose an important wellspring of values in society. And that's not something to be taken lightly.

NK: That's correct. That's also why I strongly oppose those people who say that we should ban all religious symbols. For example, they say that if we ban the headscarf from schools, we must also ban the crucifix. That's comparing apples and oranges, and it's not innocent. These two symbols stand for very different things, just as mosques and churches serve very different ends. The churches and the people who go there are totally at home in modern, secular, post-Enlightenment society. And they are not exclusive. I have gone to church here for many years. I especially like the rituals and holidays the meaning of which people from all backgrounds can share in: for example, the Sunday before Advent, on which the dead are commemorated [All Souls]. Also, the Protestant Church appeals more directly to me than the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church, with its male dominance, reminds me too much of the male communities in Islam. The Protestants don't have that, and they also include the individual much more actively in the definition of content. That is important. The Protestant Church is less top-down. 

DJ: Mass immigration is still taking place. Do you, Karen, as an economist, think that it should continue to be largely unlimited, for the sake of the free and efficient movement of human capital? Where are the limits of immigration, especially of Muslim integration? How can we square free labour markets with political freedom and the individual liberties granted by human rights?

KH: Even as an economist, I would argue that every country is a community of its citizens, a sort of club. And as such, its people have the right to define the rules according to which they want to live. One topic they have the right to lay down rules for is immigration. In Germany, we are currently very interested in Canada's immigration regime, with its focus on qualifications. Maybe we could imitate that. Given the welfare state that we have evolved into, we cannot afford fully open borders. If we did, we would attract a new wave of mass immigration of people who just want to skim social benefits.