DJ: In the Thirties, the Nazis opposed the Jews' assimilation. Today, the leftists want to prevent the assimilation of the Turks. Why has this change occurred?  

NK: The Turks, or the Muslims, nowadays present themselves as the new victims. Under the Nazis, the Jews were indeed victims who were not allowed to assimilate; they didn't have access to civil rights. Today, the Turks, or Muslims, are given full access to civil rights, to democracy and liberty — and they reject all that. They have access to good education, healthcare, social welfare, but they voluntarily choose to keep out, to stagnate in parallel worlds. What else should we give them? Germany is a country that allows everybody to flourish. How can they still consider themselves as victims, as the Jews once were in reality? That's cynical.

KH: Talking about parallel worlds, I find it interesting to compare our situation to the US, the famous melting pot. In most American cities, it is a common pattern to have clusters of people from different ethnic backgrounds: Chinatown, Little Italy, etc. These people just stick together. And as a classical liberal, one must ask: why not? But then, what is the difference? Why is non-integration acceptable in one case and dangerous in another? Why is culture clearly distinguished from faith as ideology in the US case, while in Germany the two are equated? I like to think that the essential point is that most immigrant groups in the US, while sticking together and cultivating their traditions, consciously endorse the key values of their host country. There seems to be a consensus about values. This seems very healthy to me. In Germany, this isn't true for many. Life in parallel worlds seems to be much more hermetic, and it often means an outright rejection of the foundations of our society. And that is dangerous.

NK: I can only agree with that. I also wish to live my Turkish culture. I love the old traditional Turkish music, for example. I would have liked to be able to take my son to a performance of Turkish theatre, film or music, without a religious connection. But that is not available. Nothing of the kind has survived. Turkish culture is now equated with Islam, focused on prayer houses or prayer rooms. The question now is how much time our employer is obliged to provide us with for our religious duties and whether I am allowed to wear my headscarf. Even that wouldn't really be objectionable if it wasn't for the fact that all of this is directed against the core values of the country in which we live. The only thing we are now left with is sharia, which dictates the totality of our lives. I find that impossible. There is more to a people and a culture than religion. 

DJ: I once ventured to ask Erdogan, who is sometimes described as a "moderate Islamist", whether a moderate Islamism was possible. He answered that these categories — "moderate" or "radical" — are alien to Islam. He said that there was no such thing as "moderate Islam". He misunderstood me on purpose, I think, because I had asked about Islamism. At any rate, he said that there could be only one Islam. Is it possible to compromise with such a worldview? Is a European or Western Islam conceivable at all? Is it possible to "domesticate" Islam?