NK: Yes, I do. By the way, I see a parallel between socialism or communism and Islam. Both are collectivist ideologies. The individual has no rights of his own. The individual is part of a larger whole and is obliged to do everything to make the community flourish. The system supports the group, not the individual. In the case of Islam, the relevant group is the Umma, and the group decides in very dictatorial ways — the need to do so proves that individuals do not follow the rules of the Umma voluntarily in all cases, as is often claimed. I very strongly fear that the dictatorship of the group might win. This type of ideology, based on seventh-century pre-modern traditions, is spreading rapidly in many Muslim countries. Some people claim that Islam is only a religious faith. But that's only part of the story. The other facet is Islam as an illiberal political ideology. When we talk about Islam these days, what is at stake is not freedom of faith, but individual rights. A collectivist ideology is about to take over, together with an oligopoly of power. I'm worried about this.

DJ: Necla, you were recently awarded the Freedom Prize of the Friedrich Naumann Foundation. In your speech during the prize ceremony at the Frankfurt Paulskirche, where the first German parliament met in 1848, you opposed Christian Wulff, the German President, who had said a month earlier, "Islam is part of Germany." You countered that sharia, the unity of state and religion, the infallibility of the Umma and the segregation of men and women may possibly be allowed to become part of Germany. You even spoke of "treason" with regard to freedom, to the German constitution, and even with regard to Muslims themselves. Those are strong words. How bad is the situation really? In England, legal courts apply sharia. Forced marriage, for example, is illegal but goes mostly unpunished. 

NK: I was truly surprised when I read Wulff's speech in the newspaper — a speech he delivered, interestingly, on October 3, the 20th anniversary of German unification. It was a very important occasion. Wulff did not simply say that Muslims (rather than Islam) are part of Germany, which would be more understandable, even though I would even find this formulation problematic. Why should we now suddenly look at ethnic groups or nations in religious terms? The largest group of Muslims in Germany comes from Turkey. These people not only have a religion: they are also citizens of a state. As Wulff's speech indicates, Muslims have managed effectively to present themselves in public as if their identity was defined exclusively by religion. When Wulff said that "Islam is part of Germany", I was also shocked to realise the debate that we have had for at least five years now about Islam not only as a faith but also as a collectivist political ideology had gone unnoticed by the President. This calls for a correction. He could not have made such a bold statement had he first checked properly what Islam really was, if he had understood how this religion was being practised. I know of no secular, progressive Islam anywhere. How come Wulff claims that there are such instances? They don't exist. Islam is not just an innocuous faith. It is practised as a model of society. Islam implies sharia, and sharia is definitely not a part of Germany or Europe.

KH: This case refers us back to the softer tone of the earlier, more left-wing debate about multiculturalism, which Necla mentioned at the beginning. Wulff just lent his voice to the usual cheap, well-meaning "group-think", according to which we must be open-minded, and generously support and embrace different lifestyles and cultures. He just meant to make a conciliatory statement, reaching out and promising that we wouldn't arbitrarily exclude anybody who was "different". Unfortunately, he omitted to point to the preconditions of such a promise. He left out what it meant when "different" became "defiant", threatening the very foundations of our community, and how we must guard ourselves. However, this is what I would wish and expect a head of state to think and talk about when it comes to the issue of immigration, particularly when he delivers his much-awaited first important public speech on a symbolic day for Germany. Twenty years earlier, East Germany became part of the Federal Republic, expressly endorsing its unique democratic constitution.