DH-A: We're always going to have a relationship with the EU.

PPR: You're not answering my question.

DH-A: I don't believe in an in-out referendum.

PPR: Because you know that people would vote to stay in.

DH-A: No, it ignores the point that we will always have at least a trade-plus relationship with the EU. These are friendly countries, which I want to co-operate with at every level, I want to engage with our European allies — so I'm not anti-European, but I am against the way that the EU has developed. It's unsatisfactory, it's unpopular and we cannot forever go on with a system which is not only becoming the cornerstone of our international relations, but is also affecting our domestic politics and making it very difficult for choices at a general election to be translated into policy changes. So we are hollowing out our own democracy, without creating one in the EU. 

Finally, the freehold I inherited when I became an MP was of a free parliamentary democracy and I do not want to leave parliament having given this away. And it is extraordinary that a free parliament is even contemplating voluntarily giving away powers, which normally happens after a country has lost a war, and we're doing this without even asking the people. I regard that as intolerable, and it's part of the reason I'm staying in politics, just to try and ensure that something's done about it.

PPR: I'm afraid, David, you're swimming against the tide of history, and I'm sad, because I admire you in so many ways. I'm sad you can't see the advantage of the European ideal, and the advantage to our country.