DJ: You mentioned the Holy Roman Empire. That was a very loose system. You would be quite comfortable with that?

PPR: Very comfortable, yes.

DJ: But David, what about you? This doesn't attract you at all — but on the other hand, is there anything to be done about it?

DH-A: I think the EU is an agent for over-government. It is instinctively regulatory, it believes in high taxes, it believes in big government and it's not an efficient government — look at all the money it wastes. Even in a recession our net contribution is more than £6 billion a year and there's nothing we can do about it. It's also becoming increasingly uncompetitive. Europe is obsessed by its own internal differences, but the real question is not one country's competitiveness against another in Europe, it's whether Europe is competitive in the wider world, and increasingly it's not — the formula is not working, but we cannot repeal these regulations. Our spokesman at Manchester promised to repeal unnecessary red tape, but most of these regulations are embedded in EU directives, so we can't do it. So the outcome of a general election will not be reflected in these promises being fulfilled, if we're not careful. 

Also Europe has demographic problems: of ageing and in some cases shrinking population. It's simply being outmanoeuvred by other countries in the world. The future belongs to nimble countries able to change their rules and regulations and make alliances with other countries to suit conditions. All this is anathema to the mindset of the technocratic elite in Brussels. So to that extent I'm gloomy, and I'm also pessimistic about whether they will ever relinquish any of this power. No bureaucracy ever disarms, and we saw the ruthlessness with which they pursued integration and centralisation during the recent supposed years of reform. So an incoming Conservative government must do it, particularly if Cameron wants to be a great prime minister. He must realise that we cannot go on being governed in a way that most people in this country are unhappy with, it needs reform, it needs change, and it needs a new popular endorsement.

PPR: Napoleon said we were a nation of shopkeepers, so it's quite proper that a British MP should look at the balance sheet when it comes to the European ideal. You know about these things much more than I do, but I'm not sure you're completely right. Germany has a huge balance of payments surplus. So I don't think Europe is going to go down in the face of the East. I think it's very good that Europe stands together in the face of these great powers, I think little England alone wouldn't have a chance. I think you should be pessimistic, because I think you know in your heart that if there was a referendum in Britain about whether we should stay in or leave the EU, people would vote to stay in.